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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

tl;dr: Wayland is not "the future", it is merely an incompatible alternative to the established standard with a different set of priorities and goals.

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
RAM usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, theoretically better (debatable, comment) multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev) - but applications can be blurry
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev), 2 Years Later Wayland Is Still Debating A Basic Feature
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@silverhadch
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Well yeah, you used KDE-Plasma for 1, and second, you probably didn't even try to set up an .conf file for your driver.
Not everything works well with the KMS modesetting driver. That's a "get it working" driver, not an actual driver to daily use.🤣

A good Graphic Stack is install and go. Not open the Terminal to edit config files from the 80s by hand and read the Manpage for the Options. Why doesnt Windows or Mac need this??? What kind of hobby project shit even is this??? I dont have time for X11 bs design when I want to work. People have real issues to work on.

if this is true, this is one of the few time i agree with the wayland shill 🤣 i hate reading man pages to make my stuff work, that why i use artix prec-conf and ghostbsd lol , i do not need or want to do that manual stuff !!! look too hard for my brand to understand lol

I am not a Wayland shill. I actually dont like it at all but its less painful to deal with then X11. I hope a better solution pops up eventually, i dunno X13 or something.

@darkhog
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darkhog commented Feb 4, 2026

Somehow the spark plug works on another engine, indicating that the engine is faulty

The thing you don't understand it's that it's a different sparkplug. It might look the same to you, but internally it's different.

@silverhadch
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Somehow the spark plug works on another engine, indicating that the engine is faulty

The thing you don't understand it's that it's a different sparkplug. It might look the same to you, but internally it's different.

Also happens on OpenBox. So its Xorg. And no, I wont configure my Display Server. I have better things to do.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 4, 2026

Okay, let me put it this way: If a single sparkplug doesn't work, but every other one works, is it the engine (X11) or the sparkplug's (Plasma) fault? Maybe this carnalogy will help you understand the situation.

Somehow the spark plug works on another engine, indicating that the engine is faulty

I know that you're trolling

Anencephalic AI simps accuses of trolling. Funny

A good Graphic Stack is install and go. Not open the Terminal to edit config files from the 80s by hand and read the Manpage for the Options. Why doesnt Windows or Mac need this??? What kind of hobby project shit even is this??? I dont have time for X11 bs design when I want to work. People have real issues to work on.

Go use MacOS or Losedows then if you don't want to edit config files. It isn't that difficult to create a config file or two, takes very little time.

One reason why all of UNIX is in the state it's in... Too much reliance on automation.

i 100% disagree, automation is needed, else i will be stuck in winshit

The problem with automation is too often it becomes a crutch and a cop-out for administrators to avoid work.

Why learn the setup when everything does it for you automatically? That's where the common user doesn't under that Variable Refresh Rates exist in X11, because you have to enable it via a configuration file. Nobody teaches them.

There's an old saying I remember from back in the Linux 2.4 and Xfree86 4.x days... "The less you know, the worse off you are." And honestly, it shows.

Don't get me wrong, automatic stuff is nice, but too much becomes a hinderance to people learning that Linux isn't Windows.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 4, 2026

You have to be the administrator. If you don't want to be an administrator of your system, then get Windows 11 Professional for Workstations, and don't complain so much. Nobody is here to people please you. Nobody is here to hold your hand. You will be guided. Given instructions. But we can not enter commands for you to fix your problem. The only problem any UNIX system administrator faces is the PEBCAK, and nobody is going to help you, except for you, so fix your mess, fix your problem, or go back to Windows and don't complain

i am sorru but i will never return to winslop or paid winslop11 pro , that the shittiest OS i ever use, GNU/Linux is way better but i should not need a bac or s ability to read, withh my adhd it is quite hard, i should receive help if i need to

I have Autism and ADHD (AUDHD) but I don't complain about not learning what I should learn to make my administration of my system easier for me.

Now this is where you are absolutely wrong. Win11ProWS isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and like any system, if you learn to administer it, it's not as bad as people think it is. This goes for any OS. Either you learn your system, or stay miserable. I have a custom script running daily on my Win11ProWS box that triggers dism to recopy the updates to the system image and rebuild it, then scan the system for anomalies and fix them. Since I've used this script that runs every 24 hours, I haven't once gotten any issues. I learned to administer my system properly and solved a myriad of issues I used to face. And yes, my copy is unregistered and free, uses an offline account, and works fine.

I do the same to my FreeBSD and ArchLinux systems with cronjobs, maintaining my stuff. I have learned GNU/Linux and FreeBSD and how to manage both. Was it a lot to learn? Yes. Was it a headache? You bet your sweet juicy behind it was. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

@richRemer
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Well yeah, you used KDE-Plasma for 1, and second, you probably didn't even try to set up an .conf file for your driver.
Not everything works well with the KMS modesetting driver. That's a "get it working" driver, not an actual driver to daily use.🤣

A good Graphic Stack is install and go. Not open the Terminal to edit config files from the 80s by hand and read the Manpage for the Options. Why doesnt Windows or Mac need this??? What kind of hobby project shit even is this??? I dont have time for X11 bs design when I want to work. People have real issues to work on.

Do you even use Macs? There's plenty of shit you have to use the command line for. The UI is dumbed down. Advanced stuff is expected to be performed at the command line.

@buckwheatlovespatchy
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Before I start this post, I want to preface with something. For anyone who knows which community I speak of in my post, I speak only for myself and do not represent the aforementioned community in its entirety in this post, my thoughts are my own here. I'm also not trying to bully or incite bullying, I am blunt with how I phrase myself but I don't like to sugarcoat truths. I do also ask a thread-relevant question at the end, though it's kind of small potatoes curiosity on my end admittedly and nothing truly profound.

I don't know which one of you folks with the misfortune of interacting with Xgui4 had told him about BSD and why you like it, but thank you. No, that is not me being happy, that's sarcasm poorly expressed through the medium of text.

Xgui4 somehow wandered his way into a highly technically-capable BSD community filled with people who're incredibly smart with BSD on many levels whom I enjoy learning from, and now we're blessed with his presence and the onslaught of "Why are you even asking this? How come you don't already know this?" questions like (and I quote verbatim with his poor grammar et al) "do bsd have kernel panic (bsod) ? ", "can flatpak work in freebsd ?", and "why do they recommend to not use both the port and pkg ?". This poor guy doesn't even grasp how Clang and GCC both semantically work the same but do different things under the hood, what version control is, what the difference between Windows' blue screen and the Linux systemd blue screen for kernel panics is (nor that the Windows blue screen isn't always a kernel panic!), the fact that FreeBSD is a tool and not a toy thus it really can't be used as a gamer OS, and how ironic it is to insist on using a hideously themed eyesore of a tiling window manager while opting to use VS Code and fearing Emacs and Vim considering a tiling WM's purpose is reducing mouse usage in favour of keyboard controls. That's a non-exhaustive list by the way, I could go on forever about this but that's not the point here outside of it being a way to gauge his true grasp of UNIX-like systems.

I really wish one of you just told this guy he's out of his depth, in a polite way of course; rather than allow him to waltz over to BSD World thinking it's just gonna be a different flavour of Linux. (Of which he is also out of his depth in the Linux World, if this fact wasn't already apparent considering the recent posts.) This guy just does not belong in these technical spaces, he belongs with a group of Linux gamers who installed SteamOS and called it a day. The computer quite literally is nothing more than a toy for him to run a web browser and video games on. I couldn't even get him to understand the scope of RCE vulnerabilities because the example I used was the PPPoE RCE in the Playstation 4 OS, which in my defense I did because it seems he barely grasps any technology that isn't blasting 1,000 colours into his retinas and playing 500 sounds at once, yeah I just said video games in a wordy manner. He doesn't actually really care to understand these things like any of us do, he just wants to pretend he's anti-corporate technology while speaking in pseudo-/g/ slang and buzzwords in vain attempt to look smart and cool, to put it bluntly. (Yes, all while he wants to play Minecraft and whatever else is being produced by a corporate tech giant. I don't get it either, dude.)

Sorry you have to deal with him yourselves, but we're gonna have to do our own Geneva Convention equivalent at this rate with how he's tanked the quality of a really nice informational space (or would it be 2 at this point, maybe is the kill count higher than that?) via asking mundane questions anyone who really knows how to use Linux or BSD doesn't even need to ask.

While I'm here, I may as well pay the thread tax to satisfy my curiosity. Since even just porting swc to NetBSD was pure pain, does anyone know how much agony one had to suffer to port any Wayland compositor libraries to FreeBSD or OpenBSD? Was it the same painful process? I don't know too much about the Wayland protocol under the hood, I've read some of the wlroots and swc code but I know a little more about X11 and programming with it than Wayland. I refuse to touch Wayland with a 100km pole considering there seems to be like 50 new Wayland compositor libraries coming out every 4 hours. I heard mentions of a possible shim in FreeBSD regarding Linux input libs that made it possible? For some reason that really just doesn't sound correct to me, so if anyone who's really up to snuff on that can chime in, please do so I can have nightmares about it later.

@silverhadch
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You have to be the administrator. If you don't want to be an administrator of your system, then get Windows 11 Professional for Workstations, and don't complain so much. Nobody is here to people please you. Nobody is here to hold your hand. You will be guided. Given instructions. But we can not enter commands for you to fix your problem. The only problem any UNIX system administrator faces is the PEBCAK, and nobody is going to help you, except for you, so fix your mess, fix your problem, or go back to Windows and don't complain

i am sorru but i will never return to winslop or paid winslop11 pro , that the shittiest OS i ever use, GNU/Linux is way better but i should not need a bac or s ability to read, withh my adhd it is quite hard, i should receive help if i need to

I have Autism and ADHD (AUDHD) but I don't complain about not learning what I should learn to make my administration of my system easier for me.

Now this is where you are absolutely wrong. Win11ProWS isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and like any system, if you learn to administer it, it's not as bad as people think it is. This goes for any OS. Either you learn your system, or stay miserable. I have a custom script running daily on my Win11ProWS box that triggers dism to recopy the updates to the system image and rebuild it, then scan the system for anomalies and fix them. Since I've used this script that runs every 24 hours, I haven't once gotten any issues. I learned to administer my system properly and solved a myriad of issues I used to face. And yes, my copy is unregistered and free, uses an offline account, and works fine.

I do the same to my FreeBSD and ArchLinux systems with cronjobs, maintaining my stuff. I have learned GNU/Linux and FreeBSD and how to manage both. Was it a lot to learn? Yes. Was it a headache? You bet your sweet juicy behind it was. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

You keep arguing against something I did not say.

I am not refusing to learn my system. I already admin servers at work. That is literally why this annoys me. I do not want to spend time fighting stuff that is only hard because it is badly designed.

Daily DISM jobs, cron cleanups, whatever. That is not impressive. If your system needs constant fixing just to not break, that is not skill. That is a system that is badly designed.

And please stop with the Windows stuff. I do not care. This is not about Windows vs Linux. This is about Xorg.

Xorg is not the UNIX way. It is old. It trusts everything. Any app can see input, mess with other windows, do whatever. Drivers are in the wrong place. Multi monitor, compositing, tearing fixes, all of that was bolted on later because the base was never meant for this. That is why it is a mess now and why Xlibre has been more refactoring for an entire Year now than developing more features.

Wayland exists because Xorg ran out of road years ago. Not because people are lazy. Because the design does not fit modern desktops. Plasma dropping X11 is just the inevitable outcome of that.

Same thing with systemd. People did not move because scripts are hard. Because you open one of those scripts and it just keeps going. Made of random sleeps, environment hacks, and copium that it starts in the right order.

systemd fits modern machines better. Parallel startup. Real dependencies. Services get restarted instead of silently dying. Logs are in one place. You stop babysitting your init-system.

The whole “I suffered so you should too” thing is pointless. Suffering is not a feature. It does not make you a better admin. Good systems reduce pointless work. That is the whole point of good Design.

I am saying stop pretending broken legacy tech is something to be proud of.

@silverhadch
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Before I start this post, I want to preface with something. For anyone who knows which community I speak of in my post, I speak only for myself and do not represent the aforementioned community in its entirety in this post, my thoughts are my own here. I'm also not trying to bully or incite bullying, I am blunt with how I phrase myself but I don't like to sugarcoat truths. I do also ask a thread-relevant question at the end, though it's kind of small potatoes curiosity on my end admittedly and nothing truly profound.

I don't know which one of you folks with the misfortune of interacting with Xgui4 had told him about BSD and why you like it, but thank you. No, that is not me being happy, that's sarcasm poorly expressed through the medium of text.

Xgui4 somehow wandered his way into a highly technically-capable BSD community filled with people who're incredibly smart with BSD on many levels whom I enjoy learning from, and now we're blessed with his presence and the onslaught of "Why are you even asking this? How come you don't already know this?" questions like (and I quote verbatim with his poor grammar et al) "do bsd have kernel panic (bsod) ? ", "can flatpak work in freebsd ?", and "why do they recommend to not use both the port and pkg ?". This poor guy doesn't even grasp how Clang and GCC both semantically work the same but do different things under the hood, what version control is, what the difference between Windows' blue screen and the Linux systemd blue screen for kernel panics is (nor that the Windows blue screen isn't always a kernel panic!), the fact that FreeBSD is a tool and not a toy thus it really can't be used as a gamer OS, and how ironic it is to insist on using a hideously themed eyesore of a tiling window manager while opting to use VS Code and fearing Emacs and Vim considering a tiling WM's purpose is reducing mouse usage in favour of keyboard controls. That's a non-exhaustive list by the way, I could go on forever about this but that's not the point here outside of it being a way to gauge his true grasp of UNIX-like systems.

I really wish one of you just told this guy he's out of his depth, in a polite way of course; rather than allow him to waltz over to BSD World thinking it's just gonna be a different flavour of Linux. (Of which he is also out of his depth in the Linux World, if this fact wasn't already apparent considering the recent posts.) This guy just does not belong in these technical spaces, he belongs with a group of Linux gamers who installed SteamOS and called it a day. The computer quite literally is nothing more than a toy for him to run a web browser and video games on. I couldn't even get him to understand the scope of RCE vulnerabilities because the example I used was the PPPoE RCE in the Playstation 4 OS, which in my defense I did because it seems he barely grasps any technology that isn't blasting 1,000 colours into his retinas and playing 500 sounds at once, yeah I just said video games in a wordy manner. He doesn't actually really care to understand these things like any of us do, he just wants to pretend he's anti-corporate technology while speaking in pseudo-/g/ slang and buzzwords in vain attempt to look smart and cool, to put it bluntly. (Yes, all while he wants to play Minecraft and whatever else is being produced by a corporate tech giant. I don't get it either, dude.)

Sorry you have to deal with him yourselves, but we're gonna have to do our own Geneva Convention equivalent at this rate with how he's tanked the quality of a really nice informational space (or would it be 2 at this point, maybe is the kill count higher than that?) via asking mundane questions anyone who really knows how to use Linux or BSD doesn't even need to ask.

While I'm here, I may as well pay the thread tax to satisfy my curiosity. Since even just porting swc to NetBSD was pure pain, does anyone know how much agony one had to suffer to port any Wayland compositor libraries to FreeBSD or OpenBSD? Was it the same painful process? I don't know too much about the Wayland protocol under the hood, I've read some of the wlroots and swc code but I know a little more about X11 and programming with it than Wayland. I refuse to touch Wayland with a 100km pole considering there seems to be like 50 new Wayland compositor libraries coming out every 4 hours. I heard mentions of a possible shim in FreeBSD regarding Linux input libs that made it possible? For some reason that really just doesn't sound correct to me, so if anyone who's really up to snuff on that can chime in, please do so I can have nightmares about it later.

I tell him that alot. I assume that he is a random teenager. However at the very least he is intressted in learning.

Also about Wayland just like systemd, it is very Linux focused not because they dont care about BSD but because BSD is holding itself back. They can create their own systemd and wayland but they dont ecxept for some little things. The BSDs need to adopt more of Linux Power so they dont get left behind. FreeBSD went the lazy route of providing a Linux shim despite being in the best position to get involved in Wayland. However the sad reality is that the BSDs dont hold any real power in the FOSS Unix Space.

@darkhog
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darkhog commented Feb 4, 2026

And no, I wont configure my Display Server. I have better things to do.

Then go back to Windows. Linux doesn't need fake users like you.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 4, 2026

The BSDs need to adopt more of Linux Power so they dont get left behind.

To make BSDs less Unix-like? Thanks, but no thanks. We can do without "Linux Power".
The greatest irony of all is, that what you call "Linux" is mostly not the Linux kernel itself (as also seen in Android), but what Red Hat has put on top of it.

And not everyone likes that.

@darkhog
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darkhog commented Feb 4, 2026

@buckwheatlovespatchy I'm sorry for that, but the best solution would be to just ban him (or put on forum ignore list) and move on. Also from what I've read he's under 20 so basically just a kid. You should've known me when I was under 20, lol.

As for porting Wayland to *BSD it's a lost cause IMO. Wayland depends too much on Linux kernel bits such as DRM (Direct Render Manager, not the other kind of DRM that doesn't belong in a kernel), so porting it to another system, even if POSIX-compliant, basically requires recreating those bits. Not just DRM, but other stuff as well (DRM seems to be the biggest one though). So you either have to basically rewrite compositors to interact with BSD equivalents or port over bits from Linux kernel that make Wayland work (but then goodbye BSD license, hello GPL). And yeah, you have to do this for every Wayland compositor.

@buckwheatlovespatchy
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buckwheatlovespatchy commented Feb 4, 2026

Finally, a reply made by someone that understands what a UNIX system is and that Linux isn't that. Let me piecemeal this apart here.

@buckwheatlovespatchy I'm sorry for that, but the best solution would be to just ban him (or put on forum ignore list) and move on. Also from what I've read he's under 20 so basically just a kid. You should've known me when I was under 20, lol.

There are some people in said community around the 20s who really do not act like him, some of them even maintain packages in some of the BSDs. I don't think he will end up being banned because we're generally a soft group of people and we're all oldsters concerned about our back pain and whether we remembered to take our meds this morning (even myself, I'm gonna be 29 this year) to really play forum mod. Maybe fingers crossed he'll step back? Wishful thinking.

As for porting Wayland to *BSD it's a lost cause IMO. Wayland depends too much on Linux kernel bits such as DRM (Direct Render Manager, not the other kind of DRM that doesn't belong in a kernel), so porting it to another system, even if POSIX-compliant, basically requires recreating those bits.

That's what I remember reading in Nia Alarie's post, since many compositor libs had a hard libinput dependency. I guess with that though, it makes me wonder how we can run i.e. KDE, Sway, or Hyprland on FreeBSD or OpenBSD but we aren't quite there yet on NetBSD, which is why I'm curious if the rumour of a Linux input shim is true or not. I don't exactly know what resources to dig through to get such an answer and was kinda hoping to get a breadcrumb here for where to look.

Not just DRM, but other stuff as well (DRM seems to be the biggest one though). So you either have to basically rewrite compositors to interact with BSD equivalents or port over bits from Linux kernel that make Wayland work (but then goodbye BSD license, hello GPL). And yeah, you have to do this for every Wayland compositor.

That's also what Nia Alarie had to do with swc, wasn't it? There seemed to be a ton of NetBSD-specific patches made to it, and while I haven't looked at the commit history, it could be an immense amount of changes that got made to it for all I know. I dread to imagine what doing that to wlroots may look like, or anything remotely similar. It's a shame really, I don't exactly like working with Xlib in order to learn how WM development is done, but Wayland compositor libs look even more unfriendly both from the programmer's perspective and how it interacts with the OS. The fact there's like how many doesn't make it any easier on me either. It is what it is, I suppose.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 4, 2026

My prediction:As "Linux" (well, the userland on top of it) keeps piling up Red Hat influenced spaghetti dependencies like glib, systemd, wayland, pipewire, seatd, polkit, selinux, flatpak, d-bus, dconf, whatnot - that will be a main driver for people toward the BSDs. But only if the BSDs don't get "infected" by what has already spoiled Debian.

@buckwheatlovespatchy
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My prediction:As "Linux" (well, the userland on top of it) keeps piling up Red Hat influenced spaghetti dependencies like glib, systemd, wayland, pipewire, seatd, polkit, whatnot - that will be a main driver for people toward the BSDs. But only if the BSDs don't get "infected" by what has already spoiled Debian.

I kind of feel like the first one to fall if such was the case would be FreeBSD due to how much has already been pulled into it from Linux, but also that FreeBSD seems to at times lag behind NetBSD and OpenBSD all while being the most common *BSD. Strange irony if you ask me. As wild as it also sounds, I really think though the *BSDs should be a best-kept secret to prevent ridiculous non-POSIX mutations of it as suggested prior in the thread. Maybe Linux should be treated as a containment zone of sorts from now on.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 4, 2026

You have to be the administrator. If you don't want to be an administrator of your system, then get Windows 11 Professional for Workstations, and don't complain so much. Nobody is here to people please you. Nobody is here to hold your hand. You will be guided. Given instructions. But we can not enter commands for you to fix your problem. The only problem any UNIX system administrator faces is the PEBCAK, and nobody is going to help you, except for you, so fix your mess, fix your problem, or go back to Windows and don't complain

i am sorru but i will never return to winslop or paid winslop11 pro , that the shittiest OS i ever use, GNU/Linux is way better but i should not need a bac or s ability to read, withh my adhd it is quite hard, i should receive help if i need to

I have Autism and ADHD (AUDHD) but I don't complain about not learning what I should learn to make my administration of my system easier for me.
Now this is where you are absolutely wrong. Win11ProWS isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and like any system, if you learn to administer it, it's not as bad as people think it is. This goes for any OS. Either you learn your system, or stay miserable. I have a custom script running daily on my Win11ProWS box that triggers dism to recopy the updates to the system image and rebuild it, then scan the system for anomalies and fix them. Since I've used this script that runs every 24 hours, I haven't once gotten any issues. I learned to administer my system properly and solved a myriad of issues I used to face. And yes, my copy is unregistered and free, uses an offline account, and works fine.
I do the same to my FreeBSD and ArchLinux systems with cronjobs, maintaining my stuff. I have learned GNU/Linux and FreeBSD and how to manage both. Was it a lot to learn? Yes. Was it a headache? You bet your sweet juicy behind it was. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

You keep arguing against something I did not say.

I am not refusing to learn my system. I already admin servers at work. That is literally why this annoys me. I do not want to spend time fighting stuff that is only hard because it is badly designed.

Daily DISM jobs, cron cleanups, whatever. That is not impressive. If your system needs constant fixing just to not break, that is not skill. That is a system that is badly designed.

And please stop with the Windows stuff. I do not care. This is not about Windows vs Linux. This is about Xorg.

Xorg is not the UNIX way. It is old. It trusts everything. Any app can see input, mess with other windows, do whatever. Drivers are in the wrong place. Multi monitor, compositing, tearing fixes, all of that was bolted on later because the base was never meant for this. That is why it is a mess now and why Xlibre has been more refactoring for an entire Year now than developing more features.

Wayland exists because Xorg ran out of road years ago. Not because people are lazy. Because the design does not fit modern desktops. Plasma dropping X11 is just the inevitable outcome of that.

Same thing with systemd. People did not move because scripts are hard. Because you open one of those scripts and it just keeps going. Made of random sleeps, environment hacks, and copium that it starts in the right order.

systemd fits modern machines better. Parallel startup. Real dependencies. Services get restarted instead of silently dying. Logs are in one place. You stop babysitting your init-system.

The whole “I suffered so you should too” thing is pointless. Suffering is not a feature. It does not make you a better admin. Good systems reduce pointless work. That is the whole point of good Design.

I am saying stop pretending broken legacy tech is something to be proud of.

How is X11 not the UNIX way when it's entirely supportive of UNIX being Free Open Spurce and Open Platform Software? UNIX isn't just about writing programs that do one thing, and doing one thing well. It's also about creating a cohesive ecosystem where different systems can have a common userland.

Broken legacy tech isn't broken when it does what it was designed to do and be. Your perception is broken.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 4, 2026

Broken legacy tech isn't broken when it does what it was designed to do and be.

Let's make this

Mature tech isn't broken when it does what it was designed to do and be.

andI'll agree.

I'd even go one step further and say, never develop against a moving target.
This is why (ironically) the Win32 APIs (via WINE) are the only reliable APIs for "Linux" GUI application - everything else still keeps changing all the time.

And what some people call "Linux" (again, not the kernel's fault!) likes to do is change stuff for no good reason. Like breaking ifconfig eth0 that had not been broken and had been working for eternities.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 4, 2026

Yes, I agree swapping eth0 for eps0s1 was a nonsensical change for network infrastructure.

I learned eth0 and wlan0 were the targets. Now you have any random number generated string of name entries for anything.

@Consolatis
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I think that was done to have the 0 in eth0 not depend on the order of network driver loading and device discovery. I also didn't like that change but it makes sense to me. Same reason you put UUIDs into /etc/fstab rather than using /dev/sda1.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 4, 2026

I get that but it is kinda pointless in machines that have only 1 NIC. At least for those, why randomize. In any case, let's get back on topic.

@xgui4
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xgui4 commented Feb 4, 2026

@buckwheatlovespatchy

well i actually do not like big tech , and i dont just want to game , i also i am learning programming and how system work , and i want to go to bsd because i do not like the "toxic" ideological linux communitty and wanted to look for a more technical place. But i am new so i can have some "dumb" takes.I still believe more in GPL thought, but that not mean that I am not anti-big tech, i am and i do not use what big tech do like chrome

and i dont think i belong in the "Linux gamer" community , i do not think i will like it and i do way more than gaming , because i do not want to join the normie group who think big tech is good and that wayland being forced is okay (and other not technical reason, i wont mention here but are still real) ... i do not like that at all... like as long i do not found a middle ground i do not want to go back to only those "normie" places...

@xgui4
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xgui4 commented Feb 4, 2026

Yes, I agree swapping eth0 for eps0s1 was a nonsensical change for network infrastructure.

yes i agree that word change is confusing and unintuitive, but i have look and it and that happened like 10 years ago but why ? cause that make no sense, wlan[X] and eth[X] make sense and in my system at least it is still wlan0.

@NexusSfan
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what a UNIX system is and that GNU/Linux isn't that

Unix BASED.

@buckwheatlovespatchy
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@xgui4

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has been so far, but I still have some choice words for you in reply. However, I think it'd be best to give you a little dignity on those and move it away from here. Check your PMs on Matrix. I think it would be better and hopefully more impactful if said there than here.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 5, 2026

Your not derailing. Stuff has needed to be said.

@silverhadch
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And no, I wont configure my Display Server. I have better things to do.

Then go back to Windows. Linux doesn't need fake users like you.

I develop low level and Userspace components in the Linux Space? Like when you add a user on your system via shadow utils. Then you run Code I too developed. From the 200 Contributers to the shadow Project, I am the 31 biggest. So you know when ever you use

chgpasswd
chpasswd
groupadd
groupdel
groupmod
newusers
useradd
userdel
usermod

remember that I had a part in it. And thats one of the many Projects I am involved in. I actually contribute to the biggest and most important pieces of your Linux System. What have you contributed to the FOSS Space other then senseless bs.

@silverhadch
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My prediction:As "Linux" (well, the userland on top of it) keeps piling up Red Hat influenced spaghetti dependencies like glib, systemd, wayland, pipewire, seatd, polkit, selinux, flatpak, d-bus, dconf, whatnot - that will be a main driver for people toward the BSDs. But only if the BSDs don't get "infected" by what has already spoiled Debian.

Too bad, thats FOSS and you dont dictate what others can do. If somebody wants to build a Linux or BSD System with "Red Hat" ( despite them being community projects that are mely led or even only started from Red Hat Employees in their Free Time and denying that is simple delusion. The majority of community wanted Flatpak while Snaps and AppImages are rare to come across, the only AppImage I use is PrismLauncher because the Flatpak wasnt done yet and I am too lazy to migrate my Minecraft Instances.) And if somebody builds an alternative to "Red Hat" Tech then nobody can stop them. But one thing you need to get into your head is that nobody is obligated to do shit for free. If nobody wants to maintain something you either maintain it yourself, pay somebody to do it or shut up.
We want to drop Plasma X11 soon because there is barely anybody working on it but the SonicDE Team is so they can maintain it. We even wanted go give them some publicity till we realised that most of Team was there to slander KDE and its Developers in the XLibre Wiki and being bigoted and then cut communications.

@silverhadch
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Broken legacy tech isn't broken when it does what it was designed to do and be.

Let's make this

Mature tech isn't broken when it does what it was designed to do and be.

andI'll agree.

I'd even go one step further and say, never develop against a moving target. This is why (ironically) the Win32 APIs (via WINE) are the only reliable APIs for "Linux" GUI application - everything else still keeps changing all the time.

And what some people call "Linux" (again, not the kernel's fault!) likes to do is change stuff for no good reason. Like breaking ifconfig eth0 that had not been broken and had been working for eternities.

Mature Tech can also be mature in a broken way. The Issue is with Xorgs Design and most importantly its Implementation than rather the X11 Protocols directly.

@silverhadch
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@buckwheatlovespatchy

well i actually do not like big tech , and i dont just want to game , i also i am learning programming and how system work , and i want to go to bsd because i do not like the "toxic" ideological linux communitty and wanted to look for a more technical place. But i am new so i can have some "dumb" takes.I still believe more in GPL thought, but that not mean that I am not anti-big tech, i am and i do not use what big tech do like chrome

and i dont think i belong in the "Linux gamer" community , i do not think i will like it and i do way more than gaming , because i do not want to join the normie group who think big tech is good and that wayland being forced is okay (and other not technical reason, i wont mention here but are still real) ... i do not like that at all... like as long i do not found a middle ground i do not want to go back to only those "normie" places...

You are really lost dude. FreeBSD and others are also developed by wierd "ideological" people. Incase you didnt get the memo the FOSS Movement was started by a leftist Hippi. FOSS was always political in a sense. Nothing is apolitical in Life not how the world works. And Big Tech is also involved in FreeBSD just way more indirectly like Netflix, Apple, Sony etc.
And there is no BSD Gaming, the only thing that exist is running Steam through the Linux Translation Shim of FreeBSD which is just low quality Linux Gaming.

And going back to these normie places? Dude you are a normie! You didnt even bother reading the FreeBSD Documentation or listen to any Talks on History of Unix and how stuff works.

@silverhadch
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what a UNIX system is and that GNU/Linux isn't that

Unix BASED.

There is no such thing as Unix based anymore. All Unix Code in the BSDs got purged an eternity ago in the BSDi Lawsuit. There is Unix like and Unix inspired or like IBM Aix and MacOS licensed UNIX.

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